Author Topic: Rinshan Kaiho after Daiminkan Explained  (Read 3121 times)

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Rinshan Kaiho after Daiminkan Explained
« on: January 24, 2014, 08:07:41 pm »
First of all, when talking about rules, it helps to say WHO's rules... because there are so many. I'm citing specifically the JPML.

An often misunderstood scoring principle: rinshan kaiho after daiminkan.

To begin, some definitions.

Daiminkan 大明槓: a melded kong (kantsu 槓子, specifically minkan 明槓) created by claiming a tile and promoting a concealed pung (kotsu 刻子, specifically anko 暗刻) to a kong.

Rinshan kaiho 嶺上開花: win with a kong-supplimental tile (with a King's tile, 嶺上牌).

Sekinin harai 責任払い (responsibility to pay): a rule wherein certain tragic discards, even though they don't immediately lead to a win, still hold their discarder responsible for future payment should the hand in question go on to win. The payment under this rule is often called an insurance penalty. In Chinese this rule is called 包 pao, although Japanese often use this Chinese term as well.

So, let's start by talking about a well understood application of the pao rule: if a player has two melds of dragons on the table, and another player carelessly discards a tile of the third type of dragon, and the first player claims this tile to meld the third set of dragon tiles, that player is now that much closer to winning with a Three Great Dragons Hand, a yakuman scoring hand. The careless discarder has just exposed everyone at the table to the potential for serious point-losses to that hand. For his careless discard, he will be held responsible for payment of the insurance penalty should that hand go on to win. If the hand wins by ron, he will share the payment equally with the player who discarded the winning tile. If the hand wins by tsumo, the responsible discarder will pay the winning hand it's full tsumo-calculated value... "as if the hand won by ron."

Now Lets look at the title situation: rinshan kaiho after daiminkan.

To begin, we're talking about the situation that occurs when a player claims a discard to promote a pung in his hand to a kong, and then wins with his supplemental tile.

Tiles drawn from the dead wall are still considered self drawn tiles... so the win by this standard is a self-drawn win, and thus the winning hand is scored as tsumo. This part is usually well understood.

But the payment part is where there may be confusion, not realizing the rule of pao applies to this case as well. This means the responsible discarder will remain responsible for full payment for all losers to the winning hand.

So in effect, the hand is scored as if won by tsumo, but paid by the responsible party "as if the hand won by ron." This often confuses people, who think it doesn't make sense, and many authors even call this application of the rule a "rule discrepancy," but it's really not "discrepant" if you think about it.  It is exactly the same as all the other conditions which fall under the insurance penalty rule, such as the first example discussed here; Three Great Dragons. It won by tsumo... but the responsible player paid the entire penalty "as if the hand won by ron."

I keep putting "as if the hand won by ron" in quotes, because it doesn't win by ron... but so often people describe it this way, I'm using that common phrase. But it's better just to say "paid in full as per the insurance penalty rule." It's a clear way of saying it, and it doesn't confuse the tsumo/ron terminology.


edit: spelling corrections and deleted subjective comment about "common", since the definition of common was distracting from the topic.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 06:47:02 pm by SDMiller »


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Re: Rinshan Kaiko after Daiminkan Explained
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2014, 08:17:19 am »
Kyoukai Rules (point 19): newbielink: [nonactive]
Mu Mahjong Rules: newbielink:http://12.役満のパオは大三元と大四喜の2種類だけ [nonactive]

Quick translation: Kyoukai has no pao at all. Mu has it only for Daisangen and Daisuushi.

Cliff notes: Assume nothing in this regard. The rules should always have this indicated, regardless who it is from. However, I do not believe that daiminkan pao is as widespread as insinuated by the article. More sources are required to make that judgment call.

Master Po

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Re: Rinshan Kaiho after Daiminkan Explained
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2014, 11:33:04 am »
[qoute]However, I do not believe that daiminkan pao is as widespread as insinuated by the article.[/quote]

The article said the JPML uses it, and it's common.

You mean not used by the JPML? Yes it is. You mean not common? If the largest riichi league in the world does it... you're saying that's uncommon?

If one out of five digits is a thumb, would you say thumbs aren't common?

Why make up a new name just to make one post? Because you're embrasaed to use your real name. I see that.


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Re: Rinshan Kaiho after Daiminkan Explained
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2014, 11:53:43 am »
Cute attempts to slander me. I even saw the previous one that got deleted.

Your insinuations that I was saying anything to the effect that the author's assessment of JPML rules as being incorrect are baseless. What I am saying is that the conclusion of saying that what works in JPML makes it automatically common in Japan. Might as well say that 12k shizumi uma is common on the same basis.

For the moment I won't contest that there are more pros in JPML than any other individual league. However there are many pro organizations making sure that no league has the majority at this moment in time.

There are also thousands more times the players in jansous and on Tenhou (hundreds of times more). All I requested was a bit more rigor in drawing conclusions.

As for you, you're just as pseudonymous as the next guy. I even got reports that you are confusing me with someone else on Facebook... a site I don't even use. Please keep your accusations to yourself. If Scott wants my internet profile, there are ways for him to get it. That's not a priviledge you are entitled to, Po.


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