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Messages - xkime

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Japanese Riichi / Re: Up to date instructions for tenhou.net
« on: August 29, 2019, 10:53:18 am »
These instructions are actually very good (although the graphics could be heavily improved). May I bump it up.

Also, to add more content to this thread, I've also added some Disclaimers About Using Tenhou to Improve that you can check out.

Please let me know if I can somehow provide even more value!
Thanks in advance!

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Japanese Riichi / Re: Tiles of the Unexpected #3: Package rule
« on: January 05, 2013, 02:13:42 pm »
You're right, xkime, when talking about rules that are governed by an official body, quoting their official rule books themselves would be the best clarification. I wasn't able to find a rule in the EMA or JPML official rules that says you can't score for both rinshan and haitei, and, within reason, if there isn't a rule excluding it, I would say you can. Tina Christensen of the EMA was kind enough to offer this clarification of the EMA rules for me, "In the EMA rules you score for both. I don't know the specifics of JPML rules, but I believe in Japan it is common to rule that you cannot score for both". If anyone can cite an official JPML rule on this topic, that would be much appreciated.

Understandable. That is because in the rulesets of those Japanese official bodies, the rule isn't written explicitly, but implicitly, by providing a definition of rinshanpai (嶺上牌) as "replacement tile from the dead wall" and haiteihai (海底牌) as "last tile from the live wall", while defining the yaku Rinshan Kaihou as "Tsumo-agari with the rinshanpai" and Haitei Raoyue as "Tsumo-agari with the haiteihai". Their separation is from then on implied. When they wrote it that way, they expected that would be a way to prevent that misunderstanding within Japanese players (most of them can tell apart the rinshanpai from haiteihai). However when people try to translate the rules into English, or when they learn mahjong in the west, if not done with special care, the nuance is lost and conceptual errors filter their way (especially if you simplify the yaku definitions to "tsumo after a kan" and "tsumo with the last tile" which are, as they are, incorrect definitions). I am not in a position to judge how EMA or other associations outside of Japan do things because, well, I have never been to anywhere but Japan. But anyone playing Japanese mahjong outside Europe and EMA rules will tell you that it is not very legitimate to stack them, as there is a explicit separation between those two types of tiles. As seen in the non-organization-specific links, most people (because players are people after all) will expect you to make that distinction, least you state it otherwise. And that has been my point all along.

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As far as what goes on in Japan, it's true quoting the Japanese Wikipedia source you provided isn't official, but ungoverned rules of play (outside the JPML, for example) have no official source to quote, and in this case I have no reason to doubt the wiki's accuracy; your eleven other sources and Tina Christensen of the EMA all supported it.

Thank you. I know you don't doubt it, but my main concern was any third party which can happen to read such things. The first purpose being, of course, providing full information and not just one part of the bigger, full picture.

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So, xkime, in short, I was agreeing with you, and still you are upset. Yes, I've had to edit, delete, and lock your threads, not becasue I'm trying to be disrespectful, but because my forum isn't the place for hostile belligerence. Outside of the one sentence I quoted from you, the remainder of your entire two page post was just a rant about what an idiot I am for thinking you can score for both rinshan and haitei... which as it turns out... you can. Your posts are directly insulting, and assume any rule that isn't the way you play is grounds for ridicule. I'm bending over backward trying to be accommodating of you because I've just encountered you, and I believe all people have the potential to become friendly if given the chance, and, being as knowledgeable as you are, I think you can be a great contributor to the discussion.

I understand why you think I sound upset, but it takes more than that to upset me. Yes, I use a cold and condescending pattern of speech when I am trying to be as factual and unattached as possible, but it does not mean I am angryface. If your forum is growing, I don't think you can lock out hostile users just yet, because you might be missing out on a lot. My point wasn't to make you ridicule, but to point at voids of information which are otherwise misleading.  I am a very friendly guy in personal matters, but none of this was personal. My apologies if it felt like it was.

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Outside of that, I look forward to future constructive conversation with you, and maybe one day we'll even get a chance to play a round or two. I'm sure you'd clean my clock, but it would be fun all the same.

 ;D

I am always on for any type of debate or discussion, so you can count on me for that. I am available on IRC for games at most times of the week (#osamuko at rizon). Well, you never know what the outcome of a single game might be. Tiles of the Unexpected, after all.

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